More pearls of wisdom from @JuanitaBerguson


UPDATE: I made a genuine mistake here. Please read the comments below.


Everyone’s favourite liar for Jesus, Miss (she has to be unmarried) Juanita Berguson strikes again:

JuanitaBerguson: @miketovell72 I remember seeing a group observe a miracle – thr was a PROFOUND difference – those who dnt wnt 2 believe ignored the event

Original Tweet: http://twitter.com/JuanitaBerguson/statuses/7012643275

Well, I might believe I’m the king of Spain, but I wouldn’t blame you for not believing me just because I insist it is true.

The thing about @JuanitaBerguson that really rubs people up the wrong way, is she’s nasty and vindictive, pious and hypocritical—and usually all in one tweet. Which isn’t easy folks!

JuanitaBerguson: @MovingToMontana Your punishment will B just & fitting. U have no defense 4 UR evil when U stand before Him & say Y U refused 2 getta life

Original Tweet: http://twitter.com/JuanitaBerguson/statuses/7004681594

And what did @MovingToMonta (that’s me by the way) say to deserve such a mouth full of vitriolic gobshite?

MovingToMontana: @JuanitaBerguson As soon as someone has to resort to calling your observations of their behavior ignorant you know you’ve touched a nerve

Original Tweet: http://twitter.com/MovingToMontana/statuses/7008193186

Anyway, she eventually invited me to a debate via Skype—so stay tuned!!


UPDATE: I made a genuine mistake here. Please read the comments below.


117 comments on “More pearls of wisdom from @JuanitaBerguson

  1. Honest error or self-generated pity party?

    I did say:
    @MovingToMontana Your punishment will B just & fitting. U have no defense 4 UR evil when U stand before Him & say Y U refused 2 getta life

    Right after you said:
    @JuanitaBerguson Oh you are so sexy when you’re angry. Yeah, that’s it! Condemn me to eternal torture. Smite me Miss Deuteronomy, smite me!

    The dialog above never happened… You said..

    @JuanitaBerguson As soon as someone has to resort to calling your observations of their behavior ignorant you know you’ve touched a nerve

    And I said
    @MovingToMontana I have no idea what you just tried to say.
    about 7 hours ago from TweetDeck in reply to MovingToMontana

    Then you said

    @JuanitaBerguson And that is why you don’t understand atheism.

  2. Plus, I said

    After you invited me to blog:

    @JuanitaBerguson Do you a deal. You read my blog and I’ll read yours. I’ll write something up on you and you on me…

    @JuanitaBerguson …we’ll point our readers to each other’s site and leave them to decide who makes the most sense. Fair even deal?

    I responded…

    @MovingToMontana not in2 blogged arguments. tbc

    @MovingToMontana i’m thinking-after 1st of year- 2 C if thr R atheists who’d lk 2 have a 1/2 hr wkly non confrontational dialog by phone

    That has morphed (in UR mind) to
    “Anyway, she eventually invited me to a debate via Skype—so stay tuned!!”

    Maybe you missed the part about ‘non confrontational dialog’?

    Not much to write home about (or blog here about) in a non confrontational dialog.

    Makes me a bit suspicious that you are front and center on your own stage and I’m being looked at as supporting cast.

  3. No, you’re absolutely right. I hold my hand up to that one. I was getting a little mixed up trying to blog and wrap Xmas presents at the same time. I’ll insert an edit in the main article.

    I take it you’re still for taking the speck out of my eye before removing the log in your own via a Skype debate some time in the new year?

  4. Regarding a Skype conversation… The basis for meaningful dialog is respect.

    Your blog about me starts with

    “Everyone’s favourite liar for Jesus, Miss (she has to be unmarried) Juanita Berguson strikes again”

    You make ‘mistakes’ – but your opening remarks identify: I am a ‘liar’. Interesting POV, but not likely to engender me to want to invest any of my time – and it is precious time, it is my life – into a ‘meaningful’ dialog.

  5. OK, but your being a liar was precisely what I wanted to talk to you about and what I presumed you wished to confront me with. So I don’t quite understand what has changed since we last spoke. We can speak in a civilised tone without compromising our positions. I had no intention of interrupting you or giving you anything less than equal time to speak.

    You have asserted on numerous occasions that you have evidence of God’s existence and when asked to present it you run away shouting insults at people for having the gall to question your beliefs.

    You’re either a wilful liar or you’re so unsure of what it is you’re asking people to believe in yourself, that you’re terrified of being backed into a corner with questions you haven’t pre-rehearsed.

    So, what is it to be? Are you going to back peddle away from a conversation with someone who knows you’re game and challenges your fraudulent truth-claims or are you going to spend the rest of your life selling fan fiction to the already converted?

  6. When I preach, I may jest, but my core ‘message’ is serious:
    God is real.
    He will hold you accountable.
    You are not ready.

    Is this offensive? Of course it is. So?
    And it brings out the scoffers. What you have written so far is only so much scoffing. I have not one reason to believe that you care 2 cents about what I have to say except to try to prove your assumptions on my motives.

    The people who are part of my community have some simple standards. Here are two that are relevant to our conversation:

    Rule of law
    * Don’t lie.
    * Don’t question each others motives/we may confront behavior.

    Unity in diversity
    * We are diverse – but if we agree to do something together (unity), we do it overcoming our diversity.

    Do you actually think what you just wrote above is any type of justification for saying: ““Everyone’s favourite liar for Jesus, Miss (she has to be unmarried) Juanita Berguson strikes again”” ? Do you have ANY code of conduct or are you just another lawless/godless atheist?

  7. So, let me just work this one out here. When I call you out for your manipulative lies I deserve to burn in hell. But when I point out that isn’t a very Christian attitude all of a sudden I’m the one with no code of conduct or respect for the rule of law? Wow! You’re either crazier than I thought or you can’t turn the other cheek and forgive.

    Name a date. Name a time. Name a topic.

  8. Maybe you are just confused…

    First of all, it is not MY standard that I have pointed out that you are breaking and will be held accountable to, it is God’s standard. I am letting you know that scripture says you will be justly punished for every single thing you do wrong, including I might add YOUR WORDS, right down to the things you are currently writing.

    So, I warn you (and others). Rather I am right or wrong remains to be seen. And, it will be put to an empirical test – you WILL die and I WILL or WILL NOT be accurate. So, to be angry with me is unreasonable, in my opinion. At BEST, I am wrong. At WORST, you are wrong.

    You point out that my behavior is somehow ‘unChristian.’ This is an interesting concept… not quite a ‘logical’ point of view since you, not a Christian, would really have no way to tell me how to behave as a Christian – you don’t set the ‘rules’ for me or any other Christian.
    That would violate, another standard that my community utilizes…

    Popluar Sovereignty: We are diverse in character, culture, etc. and are free to choose our own standards providing they don’t violate any of our 4 core ideals. I think you are a bit confused on standards – your standard is that it is somehow ‘wrong’ for me to let you and others they are on their way to judgment. You said to me on twitter:

    MovingToMontana
    @JuanitaBerguson Your imaginary fears are your own. Pushing them on other people is arrogant & threatening. You’ve wasted your life on lies

    And, you are CERTAINLY entitled to think that warning you of impending judgment is arrogant and threatening. Of course, I will choose to do what I believe I should do… if it is offensive to you,keep in mind, this is America. I have the right to freedom of speech, even if you don’t like it.

    You didn’t answer the question I asked above:
    Do you actually think what you just wrote above is any type of justification for saying: ““Everyone’s favourite liar for Jesus, Miss (she has to be unmarried) Juanita Berguson strikes again”” ?

    Do you have ANY code of conduct or are you just another lawless/godless atheist?

    If you don’t have a code of conduct, just say so. If you do, what is it?

  9. Plus one postscript on this that you wrote above:

    You’re either a wilful liar or you’re so unsure of what it is you’re asking people to believe in yourself, that you’re terrified of being backed into a corner with questions you haven’t pre-rehearsed.

    <<>> I am fearless. <<<>>>

  10. Yay. Juanita is ‘fearless’. This would be why she’s so offended that someone would dare challenge her beliefs.

    Oh, Juanita? That Pascal’s Wager you’re making, doesn’t work. (“And, it will be put to an empirical test – you WILL die and I WILL or WILL NOT be accurate. So, to be angry with me is unreasonable, in my opinion. At BEST, I am wrong. At WORST, you are wrong.”)

    No, hon, it just doesn’t work that way. At BEST, you’re wrong. At WORST, you picked the wrong religion and will suffer their consequences. Or, at worst, you dedicated your life to a sham deity and a sham church/cult (its hard to tell the difference sometimes) that preys upon people’s fears about death, while you could have been using your time for any other occupation or betterment, for yourself or for society.

    I know ‘disagreeing with authority’ can seem daunting. It takes someone who’s fearless to question things. It takes courage to refuse ‘feelings’ and ‘mysticism’ as legitimate evidence. It takes courage to re-evaluate the multiple errors and horribly twisted morals in the Bible, and insist you know better. (Yes, you do — would you ever give up guests in your house to be raped? What about stone your children?)

    You DO know better, about a lot… but have let others tell you how to think — specifically that you should feel anger, insult, and disrespected when someone like Jim comes on the scene. Puh-lease. Date, time, topic.

  11. Kim. I don’t know if you follow her on Twitter, but you’d see that Juanita has turned perfect contradictions like this into something of an art form. Not that someone being logically inconsistent immediately makes them flat wrong—but it is interesting that she should use such an obvious debating tactic as the old “what if you’re wrong” chestnut. She’s either brand new or presumes I am. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

    Date, time, topic.

  12. Ok… so, godless AND lawless – since you cannot give a simple response to my question, asked multiple times above regarding what standard you live by.

    How about this… what is your purpose?

    I’ll go first so you won’t feel shy…

    I am a servant of the God Most High.
    First – He is my King – All the kingdoms of the earth have a relatively short lifespan. His Kingdom has no end date.
    Next – Jesus is my Lord and Priest. Through Him, I have access to the King.
    Last – Service to the King is my life. It defines everything about me: my standards reflect His values, my mission is to extend His Kingdom. I experience His power and His presence… extending His Kingdom is a co-operative venture with both of us participating. It is the adventure of a lifetime.

    And you, do you have a purpose? If so, what is it?

  13. She is not single. If you do any research you can find her and the multimillion dollar “Christian” company hocking stuff in Pennsylvania. But I’d like to know if they live this life or just sell these “products”. I’d like to know what sort of home they live in. Does she live like other people or is she just another Christian pitchman, eating the company dog food and showing off the brand. She is a sort of Billy Mays for Christ, pushing mighty putty that she offers lip service without any real sacrifice. The world is so full of fools looking for “answers” they must be rolling in money at this point.

  14. Nice digging P17lover!

    I don’t resent people making a healthy living as long as they render unto Caesar what is due to Caesar. I would be most interested to know, then, how much of her earnings are taxed and how much is filtered through what we in the UK call non-profits limited by public guarantee. Profiteering on the religiously credulous is a truly sick practise which should be stopped—and if the French courts versus the “church” of Scientology has anything to do with it we should hopefully see, at least in Europe, a legal president set very soon.

  15. “Ok… so, godless AND lawless – since you cannot give a simple response to my question, asked multiple times above regarding what standard you live by.”

    I live by the same standard you do. I just don’t dress it up in religious gobbledegook. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

    “How about this… what is your purpose?”

    My purpose is to live a good and loving life free of superstition and fear.

    “I am a servant of the God Most High….”

    Servitude as a path to freedom is a logical fallacy to which you have an emotional attachment. But this was never in any doubt. What remains unclear, however, is why you are so aggressive towards people who simply want you to be honest about it.

  16. You live by the same standard I do?

    Hmmmm… I outlined a number of things that reflect my standard – things that you clearly don’t do… either because you don’t have the same standard I do OR you do have the same standard and violate it without care.

    The top of this blog says, “Everyone’s favourite liar for Jesus, Miss (she has to be unmarried) Juanita Berguson strikes again:”

    Then you carry this theme… when you say, “OK, but your being a liar was precisely what I wanted to talk to you about”

    And, again…
    “So, let me just work this one out here. When I call you out for your manipulative lies I deserve to burn in hell.”

    This is a simple example — we don’t live by the same standard. When you started this thread you made a factual error in your post regarding what was said on Twitter. If I had wanted to act like you, I could have blasted you for being a liar, after all, all I would have had to assume was YOUR MOTIVES for the erroneous post. I didn’t. Why? Because it would violate my standard. Your repeatedly and without remorse call me a liar. In my worldview, this is WRONG. We don’t have the same standard.

    I assume that if we worked down through the first 1/2 of the 10 Commandments, we would find a great difference between your standard and mine…

    But, that is beside the point.

    I think the point of your post is that I have said, and continue to say, that I experience the power of God.

    This is true. And it is true in so many ways it is either ‘mental illness’ or my life is materially different than yours.

    I am not going to take the time to blog it – you have tried to capitalize on this conversation repeatedly on Twitter. Perhaps this links to your stated purpose:
    “My purpose is to live a good and loving life free of superstition and fear.” Perhaps your extended purpose might include: ‘To help deliver those poor fools following religion.’ I have found that arguments PRIMARILY build traffic and I am not interested, as I told you previously on Twitter in having an argument, especially regarding my experiences with God. I am not interested in this because I have no interest in helping you parade me out to build traffic to this blog OR spending time in a meaningless argument.

    If you want to hear what I have to say… just call me and I will tell you things I am referring to.
    Here is my cell number: 570-419-8573

  17. WE know she profits from a company that panders to churches and that income paid for a castle with a cannon on the roof, making it more important to write text with a point, rather than the constant yelling and scolding.

    She, like other TV Preachers and snake oil men have monotoned the mind numbed followers, pastors and missionaries who practice in poverty. she should not have invited argument, fought poorly and closed the evening by proclaiming herself The victorious cat,tired of mice.

  18. I can’t believe I’m saying this… but Juanita’s making me miss Todd a bit? At least he bothered to read people’s posts and respond to them…

    Am I alone?

  19. What is my purpose? What standards do I live by?

    Religion often postures that it provides people these answers… and to a certain extent, I suppose that it does. Many people feel that church provides them ‘parenting’, in that it gives them an expected code of conduct, and also a feeling of community and identity.

    Unfortunately, religious people who feel this way sometimes MISTAKE that religion is the only way to accomplish this feeling.

    The purpose of life is different for everyone, and it constantly shifts as we live our lives. How religion-free people find purpose in life is the same way religious people find purpose — we look for a way in which we can provide the greatest good and then go to accomplish that task.

    As for codes of conduct, I say what I mean and I mean what I say. This is the way I would like to be treated by others, and I’d rather have honesty and genuine interaction than fakey lieing and mindgames. Even when I’ve been burned by people who have manipulated my kindness, that doesn’t make me bitter. I just become more careful about how I evaluate people as potential friends, and I never take for granted that everyone has the same ‘niceness’ factor as I.

    Oh my gosh, I did all this without religion? Whatever will I do without someone in a collar to tell me how to think and how to act?

    My opinion is that if religion gives you the comfort, the guidance, the community, the WHATEVER, go ahead and do that religion. I just feel I outgrew the handholding/firebreathing/condemnation/think-like-we-do/insufficient-answers/lack-of-evidence as an equitable trade for ‘feeling warm and fuzzy on Sunday’.

  20. Yes, Todd’s posts stood out. Are you saying this woman is full of herself? Could it be that she has given so little time to learning why she thinks what she thinks. Has she not has taken to sea in a skiff of paper?

  21. Kaybee – Perhaps you’d like to engage in a conversation. Or maybe you want to sermonize. I don’t really know. I am not here to engage in conversation… I am responding to Jim – first regarding his error in relating what was said on twitter. Second, I told Jim that I have experienced God’s power and he questioned that to the point of calling me a liar. I responded to what he said.

    Many people seem to have endless hours to debate and argue. I don’t. I am not here for chit chat, debate or even to respond to P17lover’s ridiculous digs on my character.

    I occasionally engage in meaningful discussion with the godless, but not public forum debate. IMO, it would be a waste of my time.

  22. Are you not profiting? If you are then you are suspect by default-Or do you just buy what the nice man says in the store? If you don’t have time, then please free up some cyber space and stop. Your Tweets lack banter. You refuse to converse or talk but you choose to yell and scold those who disagree with you. You can’t bring people to the light by hitting them on the head.

  23. Since she [Juanita]asked,
    Yes, I was trying to have a conversation. That’s what people do on blog threads, yes? Juanita posted some questions to Jim about purpose and codes of conduct, and I answered them, from my perspective, to add to the dialogue. Sharing personal anecdotes is quite different from sermonizing. I’d think Juanita, of all people, would know the difference.

    Just to be clear, I’m not trying to be rude, but the reason I’m referring to her in the 3rd person is because she clearly indicated that she was uninterested in conversation. So… for anyone who was unclear about my motives… there’s my answer.

    @P17lover: I don’t know what previous experience you have, but refusing to talk or have any semblance of logical conversation is a common tactic utilized by those who have nothing meaningful to say. Sure, they shout and yell and ‘bang people over the head’, because the rhetoric is easily programmed and easily spit back. Having genuine, unique conversations is too uncomfortable because you are asking them to turn their kick-reflex off and open their mind to what YOU are saying, and that has LONG been built up as the ultimate evil. My fiancee used to be a fundamental Christian, and he knows all these tricks really well. Thankfully, he had some time away from them… and stopped buying the bs

  24. My apologies for leaving replies too long. It’s been a brilliant holiday break this year. Lucy and I had a great time.

    I’ll take things in a loose order if you don’t mind.

    I think the point of your post is that I have said, and continue to say, that I experience the power of God. This is true. And it is true in so many ways it is either ‘mental illness’ or my life is materially different than yours.

    You see the incredible beauty of the world around us and assume that it validates your superstitions. When you have this pointed out to you, you behave as if you are invulnerable to cognitive bias. There is nothing wrong with that, in and of itself. Most people are incapable of placing themselves at the centre of something they assign so readily to others and most of the time this is harmless. My mother, for example, is a perfectly safe driver without knowing anything about car mechanics.

    But militant religionists like you don’t stop at mere faith. You assert that you know for certain things which it is impossible to know; that your personal experiences demonstrate a supernatural aspect to reality. Moreover you view honest invitations to explain this belief in rational terms as an affront to your credibility, deliberately perpetrated by people who are, in your words, doomed to eternal torture precisely because they have strong reasons to suspect you are lying—both to yourself and anyone else who will pay you for the privilege of sharing in your delusion.

    I assume that if we worked down through the first 1/2 of the 10 Commandments, we would find a great difference between your standard and mine…

    Question. Which of the ten (or 11, depending which book of the bible you read) commandments could not have been written by bronze age man? How many of them could only have been divinely inspired?

    If you want to hear what I have to say… just call me and I will tell you things I am referring to.
Here is my cell number: 570-419-8573

    A most generous offer, but Skype is free. So I shall assume this is either a toll line you make money from or your offer of a Debate via Skype is closed, now you’ve realised I’m not about to roll over and swallow everything you say just because you underline it with your own highly distorted and I’m sure extremely profitable brand of armchair ethics.

  25. That has been my experience. Also, some adults seem to argue like 6 year olds. Some people have the natural talent to convey ideas and opinions without yelling and screaming at the audience, some do not.

    The other point I wish to make,is that she is the owner of a business, supported by a group of people she would like you to join. The title by no means says she is unethical. But it does bring a higher level of suspect. Just critical thinking.

  26. Jim,

    I just read what you wrote.

    (((smile))) You are so sure your world view is right – You assume anything anyone would say, including myself that would contradict you is false.

    Then you tell me that “you behave as if you are invulnerable to cognitive bias”.

    Just had to smile at that one.

    Let me refresh your memory. I have never offered to debate you. Re-read all posts if you’d like to verify this (because, you never know – what I wrote might be a ‘manipulative ploy’!!! Or, maybe a “bait and switch”. You never know about people like me!)

    I have offered to ‘talk to you’ to ‘tell you’ about how I have experienced the power of God.

    Not sure how this translated to what you wrote above that I am, as you said trying just to get you to somehow ‘roll over’. What a silly notion – that my telling you my experiences would be for you to ‘roll over.’ (Just reading this makes me laugh. Not being disrespectful, but just can’t see how you can write that and this kinda stuff —
    “I’m not about to roll over and swallow everything you say just because you underline it with your own highly distorted and I’m sure extremely profitable brand of armchair ethics.” Not needling you, too much I hope, but you sound down right silly when you write things like this.)

    Skype is not convenient for me because I have to be at my computer, I have to find and plug in my headphones, although my new computer might have a mic, haven’t tried it yet. My cell is always with me. Does it cost you money to call my cell? I have so many minutes a month and it doesn’t cost me anything to use it.

    Sorry to disappoint you in your assumption that I would be profiting on the call. I am sure you can ‘catch me’ in something else to make up for this loss. ;-)

  27. Well since 99.9% of the people reading this thread are more than capable of deciding for themselves which part of my reply you have selectively chosen not to even include in your response, much less actually address, I think we can leave it up to others to decide whether or not you have taken onboard the point I was trying to make.

    As for the fact you claim to have positive proof that the last 2000 years worth of claims made on behalf of Christianity are true, but that the only way you’re prepared to share this evidence with the rest of humanity is if we all ring you up individually, because you can’t be bothered to dig out some headphones, SHOULD be of great embarrassment to you—but then if I thought you were capable of actually listening to your own words before you say them out loud, we wouldn’t be where we are now, would we?

    As for your invitation to me to debate, here’s the tweet itself with a link to twitter.com in which you suggested to me we talk face to face—so to speak—which apparently now you claim to have no recollection of having happened:

    JuanitaBerguson: Maybe Skype, Wave or another tool someone recommended RT @MovingToMontana: @JuanitaBerguson Would be better to use Skype. Free for everyone.

    Original Tweet: http://twitter.com/JuanitaBerguson/statuses/7009370782

    I’ve taken the liberty of inviting your readers to ask me anything they like about science and rationalism. If you would like to take the debate about your apparent memory loss and intimation that belief in god is either true or a mental health issue to that thread I’d be more than happy to help out.

    http://kingdominsight.ning.com/forum/topics/the-logic-of-scientific

  28. What is this response you just posted?

    Did you miss what I wrote at the very beginning of our Twitter chat and reinforced when we started this blog?
    See entry #2 at the top of this long list of posts.
    I will say, again, if needed: I don’t do blogged ‘debates’, verbal debates, phone debates or any other type of debates.

    I choose to do two things: StreetPreach on Twitter. Private dialogs. I am considering a live dialog – if I do a live dialog, it will be a discussion, not a debate. Maybe you don’t know the difference between a discussion and a debate. I don’t have the interest or the time for debates. Other people do. If you want that, find someone to debate you.

    I am getting a bit tired of this back and forth. You may be writing for ‘an audience’ – but, I am writing to you. You can talk to me about my ‘God experiences’ or you can not talk to me about them (and continue to call me a liar) – you can do whatever you want. This is America and I fully believe in free speech for myself and atheists like you.

  29. Why not skype in the open and play it on your blog? Show everyone with or without a faith your points. At the least, you will bring extra traffic to your site.

    You say you can not find/can’t acquire a microphone? Don’t you sell them? Isn’t that you on YouTube?

    If saving everyone from this “hell” is so important, isn’t it worth taking time out of your busy night/day to show them by making your case live with 100’s or 1,000’s of people watching?

  30. Given that 34 (prior to this post) posts have occured on this public thread, mostly consisting of an answers, the idea that this is not already debate is a little absurd. StreetPreach or whatever you might call it is not only obnoxious but also annoying. I find it all of little more help and relevancy than those who consider my e-mail as their marketing base without my permission.

  31. so is the skype thing going to happen or is she gone at last? I bet she thinks she has won her little fight. She seems like that kind of person.

  32. She has my private email address but I have yet to receive any further information. I suspect it isn’t going to happen. I don’t know why—but we’ll wait and see.

  33. She is laughable! She tweets less on Twitter since this site called her out. She will not make time for Skype, yet she wants everyone to give up a day or more per week. The more she posts blogs and rants, the more others tweet about her dark side. This “preacher” has left a wonderful collection of angry “followers” in her wake, making a better case for those who disagree with her than she could ever make for her own cause/business. Maybe atheists should thank her.

  34. To be fair she has contacted me about Skype and we are working on both being free at the same time to do that soon. But, yes, she is a wonderful example of how not to preach at people.

  35. the tweets have shrunk to referrals it seems she has got the point. Say Juanita, what church do you attend? I’d like to make a point of never attending that church, as if their ever was a chance I would in the first place. How often do you attend? I have an idea. why don’t we all post questions here and you can respond to them in your own words. Just avoid statements that would imply that natural disasters are caused by a pact with some sort of spook or anything related to seeing another nation from your castle window.

  36. Jim and I have tried to connect, so I believe we are still on for a talk.

    Plus, I am arranging for a non-confrontational dialog with 3 atheists and 3 Christians. The topic: Life with or without God. It is to compare experiences and perspectives.

    You can get more info on this by signing up here…
    http://www.bit.ly/9OhcCo

  37. “You may or may not know, but I like to preach to atheists on twitter. When I read their posts, I find a common theme

    We’re just as ‘good’ as people who are Christians

    We have morals

    We have standards

    We live fulfilling lives.

    So, I thought it might be interesting to have some discussions on this.”

    Hopefully this wont be the only topic as it will quickly descend to another ‘only theists have a basis for morality’ argument.

    Still it could be interesting, will you be including this on your blog Jim?

  38. From the looks of it, I don’t think it would be much of a debate. The internet is a wonderful mask for some preachers who live life one way and tell others to live another via networking sites like Twitter, Facebook, and Chat. This same mask that can be used to build an online network of sheep, also gives the accused a window to the real people who interact with such hypocrites in reality. Wonder how many of them would show up to the debate.

  39. My e-mail forwards a notice when people comment on this thread.

    I read this when I logged in this morning

    P17lover said
    March 31, 2010 at 1:40 AM

    From the looks of it, I don’t think it would be much of a debate. The internet is a wonderful mask for some preachers who live life one way and tell others to live another via networking sites like Twitter, Facebook, and Chat. This same mask that can be used to build an online network of sheep, also gives the accused a window to the real people who interact with such hypocrites in reality. Wonder how many of them would show up to the debate.

    I don’t know if this is your usual state of mind when you consider Christians, or maybe when you consider this about people in general. While I disagree with the views of atheists, I believe all of us, for the most part, are just people: a mixture of Good and Bad. I feel bad for you to be looking out at Christians, maybe others, like this.

  40. It’s very easy to tar everyone with the same brush, P17lover. Fact is, we’re not going to solve anything by autonomously laying down in neatly labelled pigeon holes, provided for us by Christian extremists. It should be obvious that the way to explain to these people what rationalism is all about, isn’t to behave irrationally. I know sometimes it’s a grind, going over the same subjects again and again, banging your head against a brick wall, but look at the tremendous leaps forward that have been made in recent years.

    Together, we’ve managed to get books on the evidence for evolution in the New York Times bestseller list. Big budget TV series on astrophysics and quantum theory are more popular than ever. Public debates between thinkers and non-thinkers are on YouTube’s most popular list every week, week in week out. We’re doing all we can, by not being afraid to challenge religious dogmatism where it needs challenging. Stay cool!

    http://kingdominsight.ning.com/forum/topics/heres-how-not-to-do-it

  41. Jim, thought you might be interested to know that ZDenny seems to have vanished..or at least his website has.

    Wonder why.

  42. On Zdenny, Michael, someone else on Twitter suggested as much to me also just yesterday. I honestly don’t know anything about it.

    On the debate, the latest threads are easy to find on kingdominsight.ning.com

  43. In many ways people who have a faith of one kind or another are fine. However it’s the people who profit from it, or those who live one way and tell others to live another is sick. Scolding the world as you have done online opens you up for the same judgement you have passed on others. Shall I make this simple? Don’t throw stones, you live in a glass house. Have you ever been told that you are just as immoral and unethical as you say non-Christians are. To me this makes your points moot.

  44. Not to profit, but grossly profit. How many of their weak minded followers does it take to buy a castle?

  45. P17lover…
    I have been thinking about what you wrote for a few days.

    Now, I must admit, ppl get a little ticked with me b/c of my preaching on twitter. ;-) But, that is at least PART of the point of preaching. A little shaking up does us all some good from time to time.

    But, I don’t hide… P17lover – I use my real name. I have a real identity. I AM a real person.

    Perhaps you’d like to come and spend a day or two with me and the people around me. You can see how I live, what I do and then you can judge for yourself — is there any thing ‘evil’ here in north central Pa.

    Here is my e-mail address. Feel free to contact me: juanita.berguson@gmal.com

  46. If you desire to “preach” you make a very poor example. You should have used a screen name. I know your name. I put into Google and found you. I found your company, your holdings, your blog posts and your Youtube spots. I came to the conclusion, You are SELLING! You scare people by telling them they going to Hell in the same manor that agents sell insurance by suggesting possible troubles. Rather than expressing your views in a welcoming way, you just beat people over the head with your views. You are unable to express an idea that doesn’t end with some foolish, self decloration of victory. Who died and made you Christ’s Cat?

    I don’t need to come see your life in person. I don’t need to fly to PA just to be guided to groups of cool aid drinking followers. I’m sure that all the floors in your Ivory tower are staffed with people who, to your face would say you are “good”, however thee internet gives us eyes like your God. Mass Networking gives anyone the opportunity to look into the lives of others, including those around you. I can find anyone in your world and ask them about you. I can look into records and see data and facts about anyone to form an idea as simply as you site the Bible. So before you ask me to travel any more than I already do, to see only what you want to show me, ask what I may already see. we know you won’t take me to meet anyone with whom you disagree, why not ask yourself what I may have seen or been told by people you see every day.

    some people talk to an old man in the sky, others use the net.

    Still, everything comes back to one point. You clearly have more than the average person in your county, one of the poorest in your state according to many. How can you not be suspect since this is your business.

  47. Ouch. Your suspicions migrated to the whole group of people around me. And, a number are atheists to boot!

    Oh well, I suppose a preacher that is involved with a we call it a Market Place Ministry would have to be suspect right?

    Even some Christian people are uncomfortable sometimes with believers selling things.

    Not sure where people think people should buy and sell things – but to each other is a problem, huh? Did you know – the Amish are the richest people group in the U.S.? They turn their money 10 times in their community before they go outside. The second richest peole group are the Jews, they turn their money 7 times in their own community.

  48. The Amish are not preaching on Twitter. screaming at people, insisting they are going to Hell like God’s angry dog. Great point about the Amish, they do not preach to the non-Amish people in our world. Some Amish may be pure, but Amish is really just a way of life.

    In the West we have a group called “Jack Mormons” who are Mormon in name only and do as you said the others do. But all 3 groups do business with each other and all benefit at the expense of non-members. It is “Us Vs Them” and in the case of the first 2, you must be born into the “club”. One can’t Join the Amish, and just converting to Jewish won’t get you the perks of being “A Jew”.

    When someone is selling, I question them don’t you? When the Toyota rep tells me he has the answer to my problems and then the Mazda salesmen makes me an offer I can’t refuse I question him. So I do question all people on TV telling us to send them $. I question it more when I see how the people selling live. I know it’s a turn off when I see those who get my business living lavishly. You sell to churches but I ask, what does a typical pastor/preacher make?

    It’s not that you sell, but the fact that you sell something under the assumption that God is real and the product works. If your clients die and find no Heaven, can they return the product for a 100% refund? It’s not that you profit from a faith, but you are on twitter scolding people to get them, in the end to come to God and give you money. It’s not that you profit, but that you profit to a point that you can literally own a Castle (Google it) and then have the guts to invite me out to “see things”, closing the argument with the loaded statement about Evil in your area. Why don’t you fix your area and leave the world to your God.

    Yes, you can profit from this business, same as a lawyer, real estate rep or Billy Mays.

    Side note, The Amish keep their women at home, make them dress like women and tell them to be silent right?

  49. Pingback: Juanita Berguson and myself and several others debated via talk radio tonight « How good is that?

  50. P17Lover. Juanita is quite unapologetic about the fact she is a salesman for Christ. We talked via http://www.blogtalkradio.com/freedomist/2010/04/11/christ-atheist-dialogue tonight and intend to continue the conversation sans some technical bugs next week.

    If you’re trying to get her to admit out loud that she makes huge profits from fear theology you’ll have a long wait for her to be embarrassed about it. She is 100% genuinely convinced that this is the best way for her to preach what she believes.

    If you’d like to suggest some topics we can build on in our debates, or you’d like to join the discussion yourself, you should subscribe to this page on her ning site:

    http://kingdominsight.ning.com/forum/topics/lifewith-or-wo-god-does-it

  51. we are alive for such a short time and dead for a very long time. So, if by some absurdity there happened to be a God I am sure he will forgive me for saying “sod off, this is my time!, now pass me that weed it’s Sunday!”.

  52. My point is this. Others should look into her, since she is so open about using her name. just a simple Google gives much info. before someone just blindly subscribes to her pitch and buys her products. It’s not that I care about her. Her GOD can deal with her. I’m asking all who view her chatter to look further into the person selling the goods.

  53. As I said in the other thread P17Lover, I really don’t think Juanita is as embarrassed about that as perhaps you think she should be. However I do not think she’s a charlatan, I think she genuinely believes in what she’s doing. I realise that’s half the problem and I know that she knows that’s my problem with her and these overtly commercialised methods of preaching at people that she and many others use.

    But my involvement in this on-goin debate / podcast project isn’t to flat out condemn her for doing it, as much as it is to make it clear to her that you don’t have to be religious to be a good person and you don’t have to be blind to someone else’s point of view, to remain confident of your own. If in the course of our dialogue I happen to remind her of Matthew 21:12 now and then, so be it.

  54. PLover17 said

    It’s not that you sell, but the fact that you sell something under the assumption that God is real and the product works. If your clients die and find no Heaven, can they return the product for a 100% refund?

    To be straight forward with you… I don’t understand this comment at all. My frame of reference is that there is freedom to practice religion… that includes freedom to preach on twitter, the street corner, or in the church.

  55. You are free to preach whatever you want Juanita, but when I specifically asked you about your disinterest in responses to your pitch which prove it to be at times disingenuous and at the worst flat untrue, your reply was to state that this is your method; that this is the secret to your success.

    I simply don’t see how openly admitting to using deceitful methods somehow makes it OK to sell fear to people. I’m sorry, again, if that rubs you up the wrong way—but that’s why we’re here; that’s why I agreed to be involved in your podcast. What I didn’t expect, was that you would chair the debate around the assumption that the burden of proof is upon those of us who do not trade in threat theology, to explain why our lives are full without serving double standards—and that is why I hope next week’s discussion focuses on the commercialism of faith.

    I might also remind you that this is the hope of a great many Christians who use your forums, as well as the many atheists who use mine. We can talk about morality and motivation, inspiration and purpose ’till we’re blue in the face and get no further forward, or we can talk about why people believe in the first place; why certain humans are credulous and some of us are not.

  56. practice away! You Sell a product with the same tactics used in more practical markets.
    How many times have you seen an ad on TV, planting fear of floods or auto crashes? These messages implying that what the spokesmen has to offer is the answer to the possible problem Your tweets simply bludgen readers over the head with spooky stories of this hell,scaring weak people into asking what if she is correct? If a consumer pays for a service in this life, he is due the service. Laws are in place to ensure this. Who holds you accountable if this heaven/hell is false?

    Second, and I see how you dodge the subject, how is it you can live in the manor we both know you do and sell products to those with far less? It’s not that you sell, but your faith tells the story a wealthy man asking Christ about God. The implication in the Bible is that the rich have little to no chance of entering this Heaven, yet you are?

    It is for these reasons that I feel YOUR pitch has many holes.

  57. Jim,
    I am very disappointed in your post. If you do not feel I am treating you with respect in the dialog, feel free to drop out. There are others who would like to participate. I don’t want you to feel that you are not free to make your own choice and I don’t want you to feel uncomfortable.

    I will take exception with one thing you said: “I simply don’t see how openly admitting to using deceitful methods…”
    I DO NOT use decietful methods. I CHOOSE to preach on twitter. I am sorry that preaching, by my definition -which by the way is my FREEDOM to define- often does NOT include dialog. Again, you may dislike it, but as a free and rational individual, after hearing your opinion, I will make my own choice.

  58. I’m sorry, have we been transported to an alternate universe here? How is it anything other than deceitful to—in your own words—be completely disinterested in listening to anyone who can prove what you say is wrong? I’m only repeating what you yourself said not less than 24 hours ago, Juanita. I’m not misquoting you, nor am I trying to give you reasons why I want to drop out—on the contrary—I’m giving you perfectly good reasons why I want to talk to you a lot more and in greater detail than I think, perhaps, you’re interested in getting into.

    I prefaced my introduction last night with the fact that I do not condemn people for what they believe—your beliefs are your own. Your actions, on the other hand, are absolutely up for debate and if what you appear to be saying is that this is not up for discussion, perhaps this is borne more of the fact you appear to have mistaken my interest in taking part for a tentative keenness to buy into your beliefs, rather than why I am actually interested in being involved—for which I have only ever been completely up-front and honest with you about.

    If you want to talk about ways in which believers and non-believers together can improve the world around us, without invoking the supernatural, I’m 100% on-board. If you want to talk about the hypocrisy of commercialised religion, I’m 100% on-board. If you want to talk about any aspect of religion, science and politics, I am 100% on-board. What I will not be involved in, is a debate in which any topic it is considered irrelevant or “uncomfortable”. We either do this properly, with a respectful tone for one another, or we don’t do it at all—and I would, again, remind you I am calling for nothing more than what your own fellow Christians were expecting the debate to be about in the first place.

  59. You are not more able to have a dialog with others than political figures on major networks. The question is not that you do or do not do something ethical, but that you use the same tactics. Ethics is not practiced in many businesses, but your business should be the standard OF ethics.

    Religion, you don not practice what you preach. You simply yell at others, tell them how God works and then sell them things, mean while using self justification to define your actions in day to day life.how is it that God wants you to live lavishly while he has another plan for the people?

    Science, well the mental game of sales and marketing is clearly a science. We both know that tactics used to sell products, goods and services to one prospect are just as easy to alter. A change of dialog and subject matter perhaps, but the basics are the same. You are selling hope in a hopeless world.

    politics, you are a great political figure. All you need is a teleprompter

    I know you are immovable. You will continue to justify your actions as you see fit. You will continually brush off the thoughts of others as if the view they have of you, based on Twitter and network media is simply non-believing rebels and the unwashed masses.

    I know this is how you justify your own lifestyle. A lifestyle that is in contrast with that of the lives of those who send you money and ask their churches for money to support another investment in your company.

    In the prior post, I ask who will hold you accountable for all this? I think we both know the answer.

  60. Jim Gardner said
    April 12, 2010 at 7:30 PM
    I’m sorry, have we been transported to an alternate universe here? How is it anything other than deceitful to—in your own words—be completely disinterested in listening to anyone who can

    Jim, You are fully in your right to have the opinion is that ‘disinterested’ equates with ‘decietful.’ I assure you it does NOT. You are not a person of faith, so I see no reason to explain Preaching to you -my definition of preaching- the whys, whens and wherefores.

    We have a thread to discuss the roundtable – perhaps that would be a good place to post comments and complaints on the talks. Keep in mind, the discussion is to discuss LIFE and how our world views -atheist/Christian- are lived out in our lives. It is not a venue for personal attacks.

  61. I just saw in your post J.B. Your last line, “not a venue for personal attacks” so you can tell people very directly, “YOU are going to Hell, YOU are wicked”, but you can’t take it when others call you out?

    let’s put this into context of this forum. What makes you different? Why can you say those things, but then duck when others ask real questions?

  62. P17lover: I used to struggle with some of what you said about Juanita until I found out for myself how she likes to operate. We swapped a series of emails this week in which she appeared to be interested in talking fundamentals. I have just finished taking part in a “debate” with her, in which my mic was cut, when I attempted to remind her of this agreement and where I was accused of not understanding the format, and was given no right to reply to the accusation.

    She is the definition of a liar for Jesus.

  63. Pingback: Live Skype Debate next week. Topic: Is it right to lie for Jesus? « How good is that?

  64. ha ha I don’t want her sending her flying monkeys.

    I speak as a man with a faith, she is not my rep in GOD. She has a complex. She can’t convert people, she is not called to that. Her workers post a pile of information on Facebook and Twitter. One of her former workers said they had to stop following her on line due to her frequent, negative posts. It’s not just that she posts often, but that she posts rude, poorly thought out statements. Who wants to read that all day?

    J.B. the net makes the world smaller, Don’t hurt those who follow christ any more. Please stop making an ASS of us.

    It’s not a personal attack J. but if you’d not been such a poor rep for Christians, Christians would not be saying, “the Atheist has a point”.

  65. P17Lover, I just wanted to invite you to take part in next week’s Skype talk, that’s all. If you want to add me ‘manually’, so to speak, my username is ‘thatjim’. Sunday, around 7pm UK time.

    I should also echo something I’ve said elsewhere and on twitter, this is NOT going to be a talk about Juanita or Kingdom Inc., it is a talk about the topic I originally agreed with Juanita to talk about, which is why certain Christians believe it is OK to lie for Jesus. On science, education, foreign and domestic policy and the ethics of preaching that to be more like Jesus you must believe in things that aren’t true.

  66. thanks Jim, but I don’t think so. I’m a follower, but I fell many of the loudest people are the weakest people. I’m far from a blogger, or a skype person. I am an investigator. I deal with people two faced people all the time.

    I understand your point on science and evidence. To me Some of it could be fraud put forward by doctors. I’m sure that happens. In other cases, I feel that the loudest, most suborn, hard headed people of faith can not, or refuse to see Gods work in scince. I mean who is to say that God’s first version of us looked as we do? When God took away knowledge, did he not take away so much knowledge that he set his first man back to a pre-stone age world?

    thanks for the invite. But I hope people will think a little harder about the money they spend.

  67. It’s precisely because we disagree so strongly on these ideas, without being confused by people who deliberately ignore these issues for their own reasons, that I think you would be a great contributor. But there is no point in you being involved if you’re not happy with that particular media. I hope you can at least tune in to the podcast once it goes live—presuming we can get everyone in the same place at the same time, which is proving especially difficult as I’ve just been landed with a massively time consuming project at work.

    Stay funky and thanks a million for being all over this story before anyone else was.

    Peace!

  68. no, many are all over this story. They post on Facebook walls and on twitter. Many of the people she HAS met seem very disappointed with her. In truth it’s not only one company, but many such people who boast megga churches and giant platforms to “preach” from. I recently listened to a sermon about how to use God’s blessings. Now, call it whatever you will, luck, blessing, Carma. If you spend untold amounts of money on fancy suits and flashy light shows, rather than on the disadvantaged why should we send you more?

    I hope she is reading these posts. She has a complex and should understand that in being so aggressive on the web for all to see, has endangered her company and the image of faith for many whom she has not met.

    Stay funky Man. Maybe I’ll fly over for a brew sometime.

  69. Like I’ve said before, I don’t think she’s as embarrassed about that as you’d hope she would be. Everyone has their detractors and people who want to highlight the negative aspects to someone’s work over and above the positive. I don’t think her intentions are bad, just that she is completely oblivious to the self-congratulatory nature of her particular brand of salvation for sale. It isn’t, in other words, the new way of thinking about “it” that she thinks it is.

    It was quite obvious from my limited encounter with her that she truly believes what she is doing is the right thing to do, but it’s also clear that she has a very sophisticated opinion on why it’s OK to lie and manipulate the facts in order to make it appear to her believers that she has scored one over on people who aren’t afraid of pointing out her many blind spots. When I attempted to broach this subject from several different angles, in person and via email, I got everything from the caring big sister shtick, psychoanalysing why I sometimes tend to shift blame from myself onto other people, right through to the usual “you’re going to burn in hell for the sin of thinking clearly” bullshit from one of her little brain dead drones.

    When you can justify that kind of good cop, bad cop behaviour to yourself, all in the name of doing what you believe in, you’re capable of anything; good and bad. So in a very real sense she is selling a tried and tested method of guilt-free, self-deception. It’s just a shame so many genuinely motivated people along the way have to fall for it, before they too work it out for themselves—no doubt several hundred dollars later.

    Those of us who’ve worked it out without spending a penny are easily dismissed as “wilfully confused” or “lost”, or “typical cold hearted atheists”; we’re but minor distractions between her and her vital work saving the world from those of us who know a con trick when we see one. I’m sure she sleeps like a baby. Must be nice.

  70. 100 dollars HA HA HA.. Google the company and you will find old write-ups about how many millions they have made.

    Now who can say they have “worked it out”? I mean what ever works for Jim is up to him. Now Skin off my nose and I’m sure that if I feel God is real, then it’s no skin off yours. The fact that these people who speak in giant churches, and tweet and post videos on late night TV shows and put on wild light shows and give people a warm and fuzzy feeling with simple group think tactics also used by motivational speakers at conventions and seminars. I’m saying that many of these people are not who they profess to be.

    What about the fact that some people just preach without spending money? Those who would stand on the street and just preach, but not in the disrespectful way she does get respect.

    I wonder how many holidays she has spent working in a soup kitchen?

  71. I completely agree. I do not doubt for one second that to people who believe in God He is as real to them as anything else. That’s not the argument here. I’ve never tried to say it is. It’s how people behave that matters, not what they believe.

  72. well, if one person feels that they can love others with out any higher power than themself, and another feels that there is a higher power, then it should matter not who writes the rules. I know a few people who are not Christian and they are perfectly decent people. It’s when people hide in the cloak of faith and then dagger man kind with words or wicked ways that faiths get a black eye.

  73. I’ll toss this out to Jua’ who I’m sure is still following along as we post, gases blasting from here ears. Try to engage people. Healthy disagreement makes a person interesting. Constantly dismissing someone’s ideas outright makes you a radio yacker.

  74. P17Lover,

    I thought I’d answer a post way above about the Kingdom Castle.

    I thought about what you wrote for a few days and it seemed that this was an appropriate response.

    God blesses people. I have been most excellently blessed. And, in every way I try to pass those blessings to others. In doing so is when I feel most alive! More on the castle after this….

    Ps.37
    [0] A Psalm of David.
    [1] Fret not yourself because of the wicked,
    be not envious of wrongdoers!
    [2] For they will soon fade like the grass,
    and wither like the green herb.
    [3] Trust in the LORD, and do good;
    so you will dwell in the land, and enjoy security.
    [4] Take delight in the LORD,
    and he will give you the desires of your heart.
    [5] Commit your way to the LORD;
    trust in him, and he will act.
    [6] He will bring forth your vindication as the light,
    and your right as the noonday.
    [7] Be still before the LORD, and wait patiently for him;
    fret not yourself over him who prospers in his way,
    over the man who carries out evil devices!
    [8] Refrain from anger, and forsake wrath!
    Fret not yourself; it tends only to evil.
    [9] For the wicked shall be cut off;
    but those who wait for the LORD shall possess the land.
    [10] Yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more;
    though you look well at his place, he will not be there.
    [11] But the meek shall possess the land,
    and delight themselves in abundant prosperity.
    [12] The wicked plots against the righteous,
    and gnashes his teeth at him;
    [13] but the LORD laughs at the wicked,
    for he sees that his day is coming.
    [14] The wicked draw the sword and bend their bows,
    to bring down the poor and needy,
    to slay those who walk uprightly;
    [15] their sword shall enter their own heart,
    and their bows shall be broken.
    [16] Better is a little that the righteous has
    than the abundance of many wicked.
    [17] For the arms of the wicked shall be broken;
    but the LORD upholds the righteous.
    [18] The LORD knows the days of the blameless,
    and their heritage will abide for ever;
    [19] they are not put to shame in evil times,
    in the days of famine they have abundance.
    [20] But the wicked perish;
    the enemies of the LORD are like the glory of the pastures,
    they vanish — like smoke they vanish away.
    [21] The wicked borrows, and cannot pay back,
    but the righteous is generous and gives;
    [22] for those blessed by the LORD shall possess the land,
    but those cursed by him shall be cut off.
    [23] The steps of a man are from the LORD,
    and he establishes him in whose way he delights;
    [24] though he fall, he shall not be cast headlong,
    for the LORD is the stay of his hand.
    [25] I have been young, and now am old;
    yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken
    or his children begging bread.
    [26] He is ever giving liberally and lending,
    and his children become a blessing.
    [27] Depart from evil, and do good;
    so shall you abide for ever.
    [28] For the LORD loves justice;
    he will not forsake his saints.
    The righteous shall be preserved for ever,
    but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.
    [29] The righteous shall possess the land,
    and dwell upon it for ever.
    [30] The mouth of the righteous utters wisdom,
    and his tongue speaks justice.
    [31] The law of his God is in his heart;
    his steps do not slip.
    [32] The wicked watches the righteous,
    and seeks to slay him.
    [33] The LORD will not abandon him to his power,
    or let him be condemned when he is brought to trial.
    [34] Wait for the LORD, and keep to his way,
    and he will exalt you to possess the land;
    you will look on the destruction of the wicked.
    [35] I have seen a wicked man overbearing,
    and towering like a cedar of Lebanon.
    [36] Again I passed by, and, lo, he was no more;
    though I sought him, he could not be found.
    [37] Mark the blameless man, and behold the upright,
    for there is posterity for the man of peace.
    [38] But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed;
    the posterity of the wicked shall be cut off.
    [39] The salvation of the righteous is from the LORD;
    he is their refuge in the time of trouble.
    [40] The LORD helps them and delivers them;
    he delivers them from the wicked, and saves them,
    because they take refuge in him.

    I have experienced incredible blessings from God. Others I respect have been blessed as well. We know a couple who has labored for 40 years helping those whom society calls ‘paper towel’ people – people who were thrown away by society. This couple has inspired my husband and I for almost 20 years. They are now in their golden years, semi-retired, but still fruitful.

    They live in the castle. Without charge.

  75. Nice, I’m so glad you have other homes you can live in. We both know the Castle is the tip of the iceberg. N Jim and I have moved on without you… can you tell me how the above is conversation?

    You refuse to converse. You refuse to exchange ideas. The evidence is all over Twitter. I’m saying try to talk with people without looking to be the winner all the time. It’s a major turn off. I know not all people are willing to banter, just ignore them. Those who don’t follow only see a woman on line ranting.

    I’m sure in every day life you wake up feeling that you must win all. I’m sure the desire to win has taken you to the top of your game. remember, the skills in the war room are not the skills to the worship hall.

  76. P17lover

    What I don’t care to do is this: debate on line. Even my “Life” show has been set up as a dialog to show views, not as a debate to argue for ‘points’. Here is what I have found – MUCH of the discussion on these public forums is staged as a way to build traffic to personal blogs and to stage a argument that can win ‘points’ in front of follower, fans and ‘the world’. Give me a break! Some enjoy these types of things. I don’t.

    Perhaps you have a hard time wrapping your head around this: It is my personal choice on how I choose to spend my time. “Fairness” by your definition doesn’t compel me to do anything.

    What is your purpose in posting to and about me? Do you want to talk or do you want to snipe? Here is my number. 570-419-8573. Give me a call if you want to talk – I have time for you and other actual persons who have things they actually want to TALK about.

  77. Well you can’t say fairer than that P17Lover, I think you two should talk. But then again Juanita’s been publicly offering to talk to me for several months now and even when we did have the chance to go toe to toe she chose to silence me and speak on my behalf instead of do what she promised to do, so I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for an honest exchange, but good luck all the same.

  78. Well, thank you Jim.

    And, if you feel you haven’t had enough time talking to me, I will give you skype access & you can call me, as well.

    Although, I don’t so much care for private dialog items making it in a twisted form (as above) into your blog. But, you – as always – are a free moral agent to do whatever you choose to do. People do what people do. I won’t hold it against you. :-)

  79. As I remembery, your original question was along the lines of challenging my declaration: I have seen the power of God.

    Yes, I have, if you still want to hear about it, just call. :-)

  80. I’m still waiting to read justification of the excess. The effects of a public forum such as this is to draw out for others to see what is and is not. NO offence, but the statement, ” I have seen the powers of God” is a line along a political statement. It is simple and can be interpreted many ways. While I myself has seen God’s wonders for myself, how is one to know that another has also seen things for them self as well? Example, I have seen deathly ill people healed by God with no medical explanation. However I’m also very aware of people who put on a big show and bop a man on the head. When he rises to his feet to the crowds shock, he is well.

    how do you respond to this exchange?

  81. If after everything we talked about via private email and everything your little minion spewed out in the comments to the other thread on this blog (which I don’t profit from in any way shape or form, so save the frankly pot calling kettle black BS about attracting clicks), if you still can’t accept I’ve never once challenged you on what you believe, only on how you behave, then you’ve said more than I ever could about how much attention you were actually paying in the first place.

    This reinforces what I’ve always said to your face, Juanita. You genuinely believe what you believe to such an extent, you’re completely oblivious to the harm your methods of selling it to other people actually cause. My mailbox has doubled in size, since our little encounter. The vast majority of the messages I receive are from Christians who are embarrassed for you and angry that you presume to speak on their behalf, by silencing people, like me, who take you on face value when you say you want an honest debate, only to find you selectively decide at the last moment what will and will not be up for discussion.

    You suggested that I stop trying to shift the blame for the debacle that our “debate” became onto other people, without even thinking for one nano-second that my frustration might have been caused by you in the first place. I’m not angry about that, just aghast at the supreme irony, that you should once again invite me to talk about these issues, “face to face”, after the rude and ignorant way you’ve treated me twice already, by pretending to your loyal followers that I was the one who was avoiding the tough questions, when in reality it was the other way around.

    Do you think I am stupid? Do you think that by presuming I am this somehow silences me, and the millions like me who know a scam when they see one, and aren’t afraid to challenge you on it? Because I’ve got news for you, it just makes it worse. You’ve made a foe out of someone who was prepared to be your occasionally harsh, but always honest friend—and for no other reason than you just didn’t give me the time to speak. You didn’t trust that I would provoke debate, you simply shut me down because you didn’t want to hear what people like me think about people like you. Yet I’m expected to listen to what you believe is true and accept that because you believe it, that should be evidence enough for me to believe it too.

    It would be hilarious, if it wasn’t so blatant of the tactics you’re known for using by literally hundreds of other people out there, on-line, who you’ve also, no doubt, challenged to a debate, only to change the rules of engagement once you have them where you want them. And you have the nerve to psychoanalyse me! You need to take a long hard look at what you and your illiterate friends are doing and ask yourself why it’s necessary to be so transparently dishonest, Juanita. Seriously, it’s just not OK.

  82. Jim,
    Here is the problem from my point of view. The reason I commented on this blog in the first place is because you were attacking me and my character. I read this in many of your posts, again and again.

    So, same, same. Now, you have to add to your complaints against me what you see as a personal affront. I don’t see it that way, as I related to you IN PRIVATE DIALOG. You know what, it will stay in private dialog. Comb the web – you will NOT find ANY comments that I make about YOU and the program. Why? Because I don’t want or need to make those types of comments.

    Intimating any type of ‘friendship’ in our interaction presses any understanding I would have of friendship.

    In the end – you take in the data and you come to conclusion after conclusion – posted again and again above. So? So?
    You are a free agent and can think whatever you want to think: you can support those conclusions any way you want. It is your life and you can choose to spend it however it seems to you to get the best results/satisfaction, etc.

  83. P17lover said
    April 22, 2010 at 5:56 PM
    I’m still waiting to read justification of the excess. The effects of a public forum such as this is to draw out for others to see what is and is not. NO offence, but the statement, ” I have seen the powers of God” is a line along a political statement. It is simple and can be interpreted many ways. While I myself has seen God’s wonders for myself, how is one to know that another has also seen things for them self as well? Example, I have seen deathly ill people healed by God with no medical explanation. However I’m also very aware of people who put on a big show and bop a man on the head. When he rises to his feet to the crowds shock, he is well.

    how do you respond to this exchange?

    I will respond in two ways:

    1. Re this: “I’m still waiting to read justification of the excess.” What right do YOU have to ask ME anything about my life? Is this right RECIPROCAL, in other words, what can I ask you about YOUR LIFE?

    2. ” I have seen the powers of God” is a line along a political statement.
    P-O-L-I-T-I-C-A-L???????????????? Are you kidding?

    I think the first post on twitter that Jim started on what when I said something to the extent: I am an eyewitness to the power of God. #atheist
    Political? Uhmhm?

    3. You asked questions, and I gave two answers. Please explain to me what I asked above…

    What is your purpose in posting to and about me? Do you want to talk or do you want to snipe? Here is my number. 570-419-8573. Give me a call if you want to talk – I have time for you and other actual persons who have things they actually want to TALK about.

    Is this a snipe session or do you have things you want to talk about?

  84. You sell easy answers to the lost and the credulous. I’m not afraid of calling you out for it. I’m just not. If you think I should be; if I’m supposed to play along and stay silent about that, or adhere to some unspoken agreement not to remind the emperor he isn’t wearing any clothes, so you can feel better about what you do, you don’t need a preacher you need a doctor.

    Give my love to Paul and Bill xX

  85. saying words in reply is not all it takes for answer. I’m handing you a rope. and you keep building higher gallows. please, by all means keep showing how you can’t talk to people.

  86. 103.P17lover said
    April 22, 2010 at 7:10 PM
    saying words in reply is not all it takes for answer. I’m handing you a rope. and you keep building higher gallows. please, by all means keep showing how you can’t talk to people.

    Interesting answer to three direct questions. Maybe this is all you have for me. Just snipe, IMO. I guess that is about it, then, huh?

  87. 102.Jim Gardner said
    April 22, 2010 at 6:52 PM
    You sell easy answers to the lost and the credulous. I’m not afraid of calling you out for it. I’m just not. If you think I should be; if I’m supposed to play along and stay silent about that, or adhere to some unspoken agreement not to remind the emperor he isn’t wearing any clothes, so you can feel better about what you do, you don’t need a preacher you need a doctor.

    Ok, Jim. I am sure this is a good role in life for you or at least a role that gives you meaning. Hope it works out for you.

  88. your first question, I don’t live in excess. What sets you apart from say, Bill Gates is that your company sells what you are preaching and what you are preaching is the truth to a book that says, no rich man can go to Heaven. I’m asking how it is just that people with great wealth can pick and choose the parts they follow. So if you’d like to Google me and find my stock holdings or the footage of my Flat, by all means do so. However, I’m not the one profiting.

    No I’m not I was making a reference to the single word that won the last election. “Change” One word answers can be very powerful when the meaning is left to the audience’s interpretation. I.E “lovely day”. To the many who flies it may be one sort of day, to the man who loves to fish it may be another. “attractive man” to each person, this man will look unique. Follow?

    and 3. Snipe? Nope. You really give faith a black eye. I’ve just seen your bickering and ranting and feel that perhaps someone should tell you that you are to proud.

    Pride comes before the fall.

    nice talking with you. :)

  89. “the way that you behaved on the show…i wouldnt want you back..you arent seeking understanding of christianity..you arent trying to find a world where christians and atheists can co-exist..you are trying to look for opportunities to excoriate, destroy, dismember, ”disprove’, discredit, disavow, assassinate, murder, slander, lie to your end of destroying God..as if a myopic little man like you could confront the vastness of even the most trivial of abstract concepts that don’t line up with your worldview…you are the most bigoted of them all, jim gardner..and there is no dialoguing with bigots and haters…yours is a world of dark conspiracies, legalistic assaults, and oppression..the only people who could co-exist with bellicose liars such as you, are only the ones who agree 100 percent with the cosmology youve designed for yourself from the refuse of the real…good luck with your bigoted titled show “is it ok to lie for jesus”..your show title reveals all I need to know about little ghosts such as you…flutter away little man, and may God have mercy on your soul”

    wow…she must have someone writing this for her.

    In all honesty I must say that the notion that in this case, the atheist has the upper hand. First off, all that J has is the Bible, and Jim has evidence on Earth something easy to grasp here and now. The Spirit is about something higher, and that can not be conveyed on line by just anyone. Such things are far deeper and more personal. Also, Juanita herself can SAY things over the air, but how do we know those are true? In all fairness, anyone could make any statement on line about his/her walk with God, but without more contact, how are we to know that person is telling the truth, sane, or not just selling something?

    Faith is a personal thing. People don’t find real salvation in box store churches with extravagant light shows and 500 person seating. It’s the kind of thing that happens when one is alone.

    Aside from all this, if one truly were called to this work, I do feel that God would move in the tweet’ers/poster’s words and the effect on non-believers would be far more powerful than it has been.

    get my drift?

  90. Pingback: So you believe we all came from a rock? « How good is that?

  91. I’ve noticed her site has very little traffic and I’m guessing most of the people on the site work for her.

  92. Heard a brilliant story from a non-crazy Christian I chat with via twitter. She agreed to be part of another podcast with Juanita and hung up the phone in disgust at Juanita doing to her what she did to me. Then she started receiving nasty twitter messages from anonymous users accusing her of ‘siding with the atheists’. I’ve invited her to write it all down and I’ve asked her if I can post it to the blog.

    The more I hear about these people the happier I am you tried to tell me about them way before my brief involvement. A real nasty bunch of liars for Jesus.

  93. Found it all with Google and Facebook. The more I read about her the more I dislike mega-churches.

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