They are doing this to each other because their god wants them to

The next time someone tells you the one about how they’d rather believe in something than be a nihilist atheist who doesn’t believe in anything, tell them to go back to their imaginary friend and give the normal people their planet back.

19 comments on “They are doing this to each other because their god wants them to

  1. I think it is ignorant to presume that this conflict is mainly fueled by any religious beliefs, and to do so tries to unnecessarily complicate the issue. The history of the Palestinian – Israeli conflict is based on the fear and opposition of the Palestinian people to the eventual territorial dispossession and displacement, this has fueled the Resistance, against the Israelis and in turn is what Benny Morris beliefs to be the ‘chief motor to arab and Palestinian antagonism’, towards Israeli presence, not! any hatred of Jews. Additionally, if we look at American history we can see that the native Americans did not resist, because of anti-European sentiments or anti white sentiments but becasue of the preservation of territory; and this could be argued to be the same situation in Palestine.

  2. Tiove: If you remove the people who think this life is a dry run for eternal life in God’s house to come later, because a bronze age myth is more real to them than the truth, from both sides of the conflict, there would be no-one to fight. Plenty of people around the world squabble about territory without blowing each other up—fishing rights, for example, or oil and gas claims. For ground to be deemed “worthy” of fighting and dying for, there has to be either a Church, a Mosque or a Synagogue built on it. Religion is the highest form of tolerance for the lowest form of reasoning.

  3. I do not entirely agree, regardless of the silly myths people revolve their lives around. It is a quite a shocking generalization to presume that religion is the reason for the ongoing Palestine Israel conflict, for example when the IDF or hamas kill civilians it keeps creating an endless cycle of violence their is no need for religion to be evoked for someone who has had their family taken away, and it dwarfs claims of gas and fuel disputes, doe it not?
    Secondly when we look at the resistance in WW2 who do we respect more the french who wanted to live their lives peacefully under the Nazis who wanted no trouble or the resistance fighters who refused to give in to the nazis, OF COURSE I understand people wanting to live in peace, but ‘we honor those who resist rather than who give in'[finkelstein], and i do not think they were influenced by any unfounded cosmological explanations; instead a refusal to accept territorial dispossession. I think people make the mistake of being puzzled as to why something seemingly so material as territory can hold such power in the hearts of populations but it is not something material, but something that can be a real source of meaning for many people.

  4. Tiove: I don’t want to sound like I disagree with you, because I don’t—but I think you’re missing a big piece of the puzzle if you downplay the importance of religion in this recent escalation, let alone the years of violence before that. The Israelis feel confident that Obama’s policy looks set to continue that of Bush—a policy which specifically promises to protect the Jewish people—not the Israeli people, the Jewish people. Similarly Hamas feel it is entirely the will of their god to place oblivious families on top of weapons stores they fully expect Mossad to be satellite tracking. They have called for martyrdom, or shaheed as in the Hadith. Both sides repeatedly use the vocabulary of religious non-thinking to justify acts of violence. The Israelis erect impenetrable walls around holy sites precious to their enemy, and are bolstered by the support of an Evangelical Protestant in the White House. Religion is far from being the side issue in this—it is the issue.

  5. No i do not want to play down religion it plays a part but i think that part is just, as a reassurance for people that their ‘god is behind them’; that sort of thing i do not think that belief is the main reason for the violence. Additionally if we take that belief their still would be resistance, and many people would still think it legitimate [the resistance].

    As to the question of Evangelical backing from America, that is a true point for sure, but we can also see that their is a significant decrease of Israeli loyalty, from Jewish Americans. Not to mention that Obama won the election and many many people were questioning his views towards Israel.

    My point of argument is that religion DOES play a SMALL part. But it is no way the main issue. If we take two of the leading scholars in this area, [i have already talked about benny morris]. But if we look at Ilan Pappe and Norman Finkelstein, Pappe says that Gaza is a ‘mega prison’, and Finkelstein [a academic genius in my opinion, regarding his meticulous research and his overwhelming arguments] says quite simply that trying to use religion is just trying complicate the issue when it is a relatively simple one, this resistance is the result of once again territorial dispossession and displacement. So thats the main issue.

  6. Yes, but they’re not fighting over this land because they’re fond of the view, it’s because of the religious buildings erected upon it. Am I right?

  7. No, gaza does not really have any famous religion buildings on it they are mainly in Jerusalem [which is next to the west bank] i.e. the Dome of the Rock, and the Wailing Wall. The current conflict is between Israel and Gaza. The West Bank [though a protester has been shot there today] has not done anything; the area 1 mile east to Jerusalem. These are 2 separate areas West Bank and Gaza. Gaza is the strip of land west of Israel, that is 25 Miles in length, and 5 miles in width concerning the shortest point which is through [imo] Dayr al-balah. And probably 7.5 miles across through Khan Younis, a very small area.

  8. So the Israelis are going to stop in Gaza? I rather think that without massive international pressure to show restraint they’ll fight their way to Jerusalem until the possibility of a two state solution is but a distant memory of a long forgotten peace treaty, signed on the White House lawn.

  9. What is interesting is that; i am following the news quite carefully, Sky news, BBC News 24, Al Jazeera English [which Dawkins quite likes apparently] and the former 2 are not pressing Israeli spokesmen on the fact that it was actually Israel that broke the truce, example being; when everyone was looking at Obama and the election, Israel assassinated 30 people, and additionally was blowing up tunnels in June 2008. Mark Regev one spokesman keeps saying they launched the rockets and we will not take this. He did not say yes Hamas were actually stopping Palestinians from firing rockets in other factions DURING the cease fire but we still had to take some people out, and blow up some tunnels he could have even argued this was due to intelligence that their was a build up near the end of the cease fire so thats why Israel took this preemptive strike, but no nothing of the sort.

  10. They will not just stop in Gaza especially after suffering a sort of defeat; they were unprepared for how trained and effective Hezbollah fighters were so there will definitely be another war in lebanon

  11. The BBC have been particularly even handed, I think. I can’t say the same of Al Jazeera—as I only have it on Zattoo internet streaming and it’s slow.

    The Guardian and Times coverage of the June 2008 breaks in the ceasefire were exceptionally well written and almost universally ignored by the TV MSM.

  12. Ah i see that thanks for that. I think it was on the 1st/2nd of January, where
    Matthew Amroliwala interviewed, Ron Prosor, Israeli ambassador to the UK. It was hard interview i thought i was watching the new Paxman or something, but sky does not really have that level of questioning. Then again they have reporter in Sderot, but the BBC does not. I really wish i had some video capture software because the i have iptv so the news is running on my desktop

    Also i am getting Al Jazeera, from http://www.livestation.com/channels/3-al_jazeera_english?detectwmp=false& that address, it is interesting becasue they are the only station i think which has reporters INSIDE Gaza

  13. i have found the woman Mechi Fendel, on facebook, and i am thinking of messaging her, for some reason, just to ask how she is feeling about all this and her comments, she may be furious and/or very arrogant and sound totally unchanged. But if i can show how it was not hamas who broke the cease fire in a kind way,..i dunno its just a desire thats been stuck with me for the last few days

  14. damn im kinda afraid, she seems sooo right wing, i will ask that if i get a reply back that is reasonable.

  15. It looks like the BBC news website, but I don’t know which talk-back it is, or if it is still on-line. I saw this JPEG on reddit.com. I didn’t see the original article.

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